Page 4 — Yuta Nippō — Hoji Shinbun Digital Collection

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Only asking because you said not to do anything without asking you first Here's the scan report:. TREE fittingly is found in this kanji. Re: [docbook2X] Speed of processing man pages. The temporal nature of this kanji explains the appearance of DAY. A perl filter is required afterwards to handle whitespace issues and to beautify the output.

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Enlistment is for a period of three years. This announcement marks the end of the requirement that men in this age bracket must appjy through Selective Service to join the Army. A highlight of the new program is the opportunity it affords qualified men to select an overseas theater as well as their arm or service. Open with Desktop View raw View blame.

Thanksgiving; harvest festival; ten; needle; fiesta; top hat; scarf; cloth; clothes; clothing; garment. Freud; state of mind; laid waste; wreath; flowers; deceased; perish; top hat; fishhook; stream; flood. Freud; state of mind; meeting; umbrella; butchers; moon; month; flesh; part of the body; sword; sabre; saber. There simply wasn't any alternative to hacky Perl scripts in the early stages of docbook2X.

Even if it is missing some theoretically nice-to-have features e. So don't count on me adding those features. If you want them, send patches. Well, I did just that: took about one hour to integrate it. The code is nasty, trying to glue together the two interfaces namespaces, library functions used by the DocBook XSL stylesheets and docbook2X, but, it works : I probably should make yet another release soon, since anon.

No, the instant tool doesn't show that. The docbook-to-man design severely limits what it can do, and so also severely limits what users can do. When users find that it docbook-to-man doesn't output their source the way they would expect, they have to make changes to their source to work around the deficiencies in docbook-to-man. I think the main design criteria for any tool for transforming DocBook to output formats is that is should handle any structures that DocBook says are valid, and output them as expected.

Most users could not care less about how fast a tool is if it does not give them the output they expect. DocBook2X is plenty fast enough for most users. And how much faster would you reasonably expect that you could make it? I think you would have a difficult or impossible time making it even just twice as fast. But let's imagine that you could make it three times as fast. Even if you were able to somehow make it that fast, it would still not seem anywhere near fast enough to the people who are choosing to use docbook-to-man now instead of DocBook2X or the DocBook XSL stylesheets.

It's just a matter how much work it'd be to implement them and how much of priority your users would place on having some moderate performance increases instead of having, say, more features or support for more DocBook structures. And that view is: I think you've done a nice piece of work in putting together DocBook2X. I can understand that as an engineer maybe you can here and there see some flaws in your design and would love to fix those and to make your application as efficient as possible.

But sometimes you need to step back and look at everything you've done well already, and carefully consider what value your users see in your application as it currently is, and what potential improvements in it would be most important to them. That remains my goal. If I had never seen or used DocBook2X, I would never have bothered setting out on the mission of improving the manpages stylesheet -- because to me, DocBook2X proved that it was possible to create a reasonably full-featured DocBook-to-man processor, with acceptable performance.

And I reckon I'll also go ahead and install the new release and try it out. FWIW, here's output from time 1 for a run through the DocBook project manpages stylesheets of all refentry instances.

Note that one of the things the makefile does is to first create a number of "wrapper" files that combine the refentry instances into groups of Then it runs the transformation on those wrapper files instead of the individual source files. The output is exactly the same, but it's significantly faster. In my experiences, users typically maintain sets of refentry instances instead -- or at least use XInclude or some other mechanism to to group them before generating output. This includes fixing a bug that, in some cases, caused an extra blank line to occur after lists in man pages.

Most notably, the docbook2X man page has been split into two much more detailed man pages explaining man-page conversion and Texinfo conversion separately, along with a reference of stylesheet parameters.

The documentation has also been re-indexed finally! Also, due to an oversight, the last release omitted the stylesheet reference documentation. They are now included again. Some plans for later release: Automated testing of docbook2X is not as developed as I would like.

Right now, "testing" only consists of running the conversion and then manually checking the final output in groff and info. That's obviously unmanageable when you start having thousands of man pages.

The process You are right. My example was probably over-stretched. Oops, typo, I meant instead of It's more of a fudge factor, at the moment my sources aren't that big to require some 30 seconds to process HTML, but when they grow I woudn't want to have this problem.

Yes, that's what I doing for my other project. Problem is, DocBook is not really well-suited for "distributed documents" of this sort. Perhaps, but this "doing a lot of stuff" can, in theory at least, be done quickly, as that instant tool shows.

Okay, I think we got a little sidetracked with that example I proposed. I'll retract my demand for near-instant transformation of arbitrary DocBook documents. I see. When I wrote the first message I never intended to take this to the extremes, only to see if there were smaller optimizations to docbook2X that could be done without rewriting anything.

They were still several years ago, but they are not now. The Solaris doc team is now authoring all their man pages in nroff, and has been doing so for a while now. The process of taking a document of some arbitrary length that is completely free from any presentational markup and turning it into a rendering format on the fly is not something that anyone should reasonably expect to be able to do.

That means you have DocBook sources in your collection that probably take significantly longer than that to process. If your goal is to come up with a system that does DocBook-to-man transformation on the fly and provides a near-instantaneous response from the man command, I don't think you are setting a reasonable goal for yourself.

I can't afford. And is it really that slow relative to other alternatives? Anyway, you do of course need to rebuild the docs each time you make a code change that is, a change to your C or whatever code as opposed to a change to the embedded doc.

You can set up your build process with a "distrib" or whatever target such that you build only when you are packaging the distribution version of your application, or only build when you want to test doc changes.

A build setup the rebuilds the doc every time a code change is made is not a good build setup -- regardless of the system you are using for building your docs. Which is not to say that good DocBook-to-man converters aren't doing a lot of stuff themselves. I think I would personally say that any converter is doing quite a lot when it takes a large, complex DocBook document -- which is completely free from any presentational markup -- and transforms it into a rendering format be is XSL-FO, HTML, groff, or whatever that is primarily presentational.

If that's your assumption about what a man page is, I think you might need to adjust your assumption. The ethereal-filter 4 man page, for example, is 4. If you consider that obscure, here a examples for some more widely used man pages: perlfunc man page: K gcc The size of the man file simply depends on what application you're documenting, and how extensively is it documented in source the man page is generated from.

How reasonable would it be to expect to be able to convert the source for the K perfunc man page on the fly, and get a near-instantaneous response when doing it?

I'm not using xsl:key. I'm using what is basically an XSLT 2. I think I considered xsl:key but ended up not using because there was something that prevented it from being usable with the design. I don't remember now. You're instead comparing two completely different things.

Some of them are fine alternatives, especially if you're willing to trade off flexibility and power for speed, and as long as you are willing to build your application in such as way that it requires end users to install additional dependencies other than just an XSLT engine in order to use it.

I personally think that there are many better uses to which you could put your energy and skills than in trying to creating the world's fastest DocBook-to-man or DocBook to HTML, or DocBook to FO transformation system. Even if you manage to achieve whatever performance goals you have in mind, the fact is that most users are simply not going to care, because most do not consider their current build times to be excessive. I will download it and try it out soon. An important reason that I've still started that project was because I want ed an exercise in understanding and using FO before trying to tackle a real FO processor.

Unfortunately, I've failed. It is frustrating to be constantly waiting for computers with 1. I would much prefer not to exacerbate the problem with my own software. If I fix a bug in docbook2X and re-run a regression test to check, I want to wait as short a time as possible for the results.

Also, there are situations where waiting is just not possible. Another kind of XML processing I do is literate programming, with edit-compile-test cycles. But the C compiler is typically loaded once for each file so the comparison isn't fair , and C compilers analyze the source heavily; they do a lot more than DocBook to man page converters. I mean, man pages are just 5K text files. Besides, I hear the tcc compiler alternative to gcc is very fast.

Well, utf8trans and iconv are blazingly fast. But even using just a subset, I've found through checking Btw, why is it necessary to use a small subset? If you've got xsl:key, the performance shouldn't depend on the size of the character map. Though I'm not in favor of this approach because it seems wasteful to load a 5MB XML document who knows how big it would expand to in memory just to process 10K chunks at a time. Compare it just for kicks to, say, compiling and linking a C application that has as many lines of code as there are lines in the source for thos pages.

I reckon it might take a lot longer than one minute to build that much C code. By "charset conversion" do you really mean charset conversion, or so you mean the Unicode-to-roff character translations that DocBook2X does?

If you mean the Unicode-to-roff character translations, I would reckon that adding that will slow things down significantly. Back in June of last year, inspired by the existing character- translatin support in DocBook2X, I added support in the DocBook project manpages stylesheet for user-configurable Unicode-to-roff character translations.

It relies on use of a map file that is very much like the one you came up with for DocBook2X. By default, the manpages stylesheet only uses a subset of the full map. But even using just a subset, I've found through checking with the --profile in xsltproc that total time for all calls to the XSLT template that performs the character translation far exceeds the total time needed for any other single template. Doing string substitutions in XSLT 1.

Another optimization that makes a significant difference, at least in the case of processing with the DocBook project manpages stylesheet, is combining all the source files together into a single XML document prior to running the XSLT process on that source. You could have DocBook2X do that quickly and efficiently using a simple shell script or of course using Perl. I would take pride in that figure if I were you.

Again, for the sake of comparison, consider how long it might take to compile a C application or set of applications from 10, separate source files. I think it might take a lot longer than one hour. It is probably significantly faster than what the DocBook project manpages stylesheet might be able to do with the same document collection. Perhaps as much as 10 times or more faster.

But it is not really useful to consider performance of man-page conversion in isolation. I think if you also need to compare it to performance of other conversion for other output formats, primarily compare it to performance for HTML and FO transformation. I have found that converting a source file to man output using the DocBook project manpages stylesheet requires roughly as much processing time as converting that same source to "chunked" HTML output using the chunk stylesheet in the DocBook XSL distro.

So the manpages stylesheet, slow though it may be, really isn't very slow at all relative to processing for other output formats. As far as other DocBook-to-man solutions, I think it might be unlikely that you will be able to achieve processing times as small as those of Fred Dalrymple's instant 1 -based docbook-to-man converter. But I personally wouldn't bother taking any time to compare anything to that. It's true that some people still use it, but output from it is just worthless unless you are willing put all kinds of workarounds in your source to deal with the many deficiencies that docbook-to-man has.

For one thing, it requires you to keep the source for all your refentry instances in separate files, because it's not capable of bursting or chunking out separate man pages from a source file that contains multiple refentry instances.

To be fair to it, I would say that the deficiencies are due to the fact that it's basically just ancient it was written almost 10 years ago and really has not been updated significantly since.

No coding required! I would like to test with your document collection and see what I get. Could you tar up the whole set of source files you are currently testing with, and put them online somewhere so that I can download them? If you can do that, I can give you some data on how long it takes to process that same document collection using the the DocBook manpages stylesheet.

I will be giving it a try soon. The way I ended up dealing with it is to have the stylesheet do a final pass in which it reads in the entire converted-to-roff rendered output and then does a series of string substitutions on that in order to clean up some things. It is basically the equivalent of running a sed or Perl string-substitution script over the final output.

There is of course a not-insignificant performance hit to doing that. But it's not at all excessive. So the manpages stylesheet now fully supports tables. Well, guess what. No tables though, unless someone screams for it -- the table algorithm is complicated enough; I'm not in the mood to reimplement it. Things left to do for version 0.

I would like to know if anyone is particularly interested in fast DocBook-to-man-pages conversion. I've came across the problem of slow processing when running the automated tests for docbook2X. Let's just say, the performance results are fairly disappointing, and it isn't obvious how the situation could be improved short of rewriting everything in C.

I'll make a full write-up of the results in the next bugfix release coming soon , but here are my preliminary results, if anyone is interested. In my case, these documents come from using Eric S. Raymond's doclifter on all the man pages installed on my system. So about. Or one hour to process pages. Anyone like to do these?

I have made a long due release of version 0. I haven't done much testing of the user-contributed items, because I'm too lazy today I set myself a goal of getting this release out the door in one day, and this is it.

If you find problems, please send bug reports. Though I did test the stuff that I wrote before. Unfortunately, the lack of interest from others has not been a good motivator for this project. It's not quite dead yet, since I do have the sources to what I was developing, and I still think a groff-based FO processor would be useful. I may just revive it on impulse, if I need to get print output for my XML documents. Let's just say that I'm putting the project on hold for now.

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Discharged veterans are preferred for jobs now open but other openings are occurring from day to day. Training schools are operated for many types of work and persons interested in learning a trade will be paid while learning. To establish a fund for sending Christmas packages overseas. Other cabinet members are known to favor deporting all of them, even though most of them have never seen Japan. The issue is certain to become one of the most important and most debated problems before the new parliament which opened Thursday.

Of the 23, Japanese-Canad-ians listed in the dominion as of last February, approximately 10, have signified their desire to return to Japan—a percentage much higher than in tne United States.

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The hex values at that character are E2 80 A6. It should. Anyway, I will download the RPM package, and investigate too. Character translation works right there; I've just verified. I installed the package from the Fedora Extras yum repository. I included the. I just installed the package using yumex. Everything works fine except for the repeatable arguments.

In hindsight, it would have better if the script warned the user if the configuration is not correct. I can fix that in the next release. Thanks, but I can convert them to man pages just fine on my system. So that's why I suspect a docbook2X config glitch on your side. I've never seen any reports of this problem before.

Document requires an element [Ln: 1, Col: 0] [mike Let me know if you need anything else. Any suggestions you might have would be greatly appreciated. Do you have a test case? But this works for me. For example, the ellipsis in the utf8trans. Could you elaborate on what the commands you used to convert your man pages? CVS on SF is broken and nobody else can see the work.

I get the impression that the SF crew is not interested in maintaining the CVS service going forward and is hoping that most projects will migrate over to Subversion as soon as possible. Hello again, Looking at the SourceForge project page, I've noticed that it's been almost 7 years since I wrote the first versions of DocBook-to-man-page converters, being unsatisfied with that same instant 1 -based tool.

And yet docbook2X still isn't at version 1. The explanation is simple. The implicit if ambitious goal I had at the beginning, was that "1. There simply wasn't any alternative to hacky Perl scripts in the early stages of docbook2X. Even if it is missing some theoretically nice-to-have features e.

So don't count on me adding those features. If you want them, send patches. Well, I did just that: took about one hour to integrate it.

The code is nasty, trying to glue together the two interfaces namespaces, library functions used by the DocBook XSL stylesheets and docbook2X, but, it works : I probably should make yet another release soon, since anon. No, the instant tool doesn't show that. The docbook-to-man design severely limits what it can do, and so also severely limits what users can do. When users find that it docbook-to-man doesn't output their source the way they would expect, they have to make changes to their source to work around the deficiencies in docbook-to-man.

I think the main design criteria for any tool for transforming DocBook to output formats is that is should handle any structures that DocBook says are valid, and output them as expected. Most users could not care less about how fast a tool is if it does not give them the output they expect. DocBook2X is plenty fast enough for most users.

And how much faster would you reasonably expect that you could make it? I think you would have a difficult or impossible time making it even just twice as fast. But let's imagine that you could make it three times as fast. Even if you were able to somehow make it that fast, it would still not seem anywhere near fast enough to the people who are choosing to use docbook-to-man now instead of DocBook2X or the DocBook XSL stylesheets.

It's just a matter how much work it'd be to implement them and how much of priority your users would place on having some moderate performance increases instead of having, say, more features or support for more DocBook structures.

And that view is: I think you've done a nice piece of work in putting together DocBook2X. I can understand that as an engineer maybe you can here and there see some flaws in your design and would love to fix those and to make your application as efficient as possible. But sometimes you need to step back and look at everything you've done well already, and carefully consider what value your users see in your application as it currently is, and what potential improvements in it would be most important to them.

That remains my goal. If I had never seen or used DocBook2X, I would never have bothered setting out on the mission of improving the manpages stylesheet -- because to me, DocBook2X proved that it was possible to create a reasonably full-featured DocBook-to-man processor, with acceptable performance. And I reckon I'll also go ahead and install the new release and try it out. FWIW, here's output from time 1 for a run through the DocBook project manpages stylesheets of all refentry instances.

Note that one of the things the makefile does is to first create a number of "wrapper" files that combine the refentry instances into groups of Then it runs the transformation on those wrapper files instead of the individual source files. The output is exactly the same, but it's significantly faster.

In my experiences, users typically maintain sets of refentry instances instead -- or at least use XInclude or some other mechanism to to group them before generating output. This includes fixing a bug that, in some cases, caused an extra blank line to occur after lists in man pages. Most notably, the docbook2X man page has been split into two much more detailed man pages explaining man-page conversion and Texinfo conversion separately, along with a reference of stylesheet parameters.

The documentation has also been re-indexed finally! Also, due to an oversight, the last release omitted the stylesheet reference documentation.

They are now included again. Some plans for later release: Automated testing of docbook2X is not as developed as I would like. Right now, "testing" only consists of running the conversion and then manually checking the final output in groff and info. That's obviously unmanageable when you start having thousands of man pages.

The process You are right. My example was probably over-stretched. Oops, typo, I meant instead of It's more of a fudge factor, at the moment my sources aren't that big to require some 30 seconds to process HTML, but when they grow I woudn't want to have this problem. Yes, that's what I doing for my other project. Problem is, DocBook is not really well-suited for "distributed documents" of this sort. Perhaps, but this "doing a lot of stuff" can, in theory at least, be done quickly, as that instant tool shows.

Okay, I think we got a little sidetracked with that example I proposed. I'll retract my demand for near-instant transformation of arbitrary DocBook documents. I see. When I wrote the first message I never intended to take this to the extremes, only to see if there were smaller optimizations to docbook2X that could be done without rewriting anything. They were still several years ago, but they are not now. The Solaris doc team is now authoring all their man pages in nroff, and has been doing so for a while now.

The process of taking a document of some arbitrary length that is completely free from any presentational markup and turning it into a rendering format on the fly is not something that anyone should reasonably expect to be able to do. That means you have DocBook sources in your collection that probably take significantly longer than that to process.

If your goal is to come up with a system that does DocBook-to-man transformation on the fly and provides a near-instantaneous response from the man command, I don't think you are setting a reasonable goal for yourself. I can't afford. And is it really that slow relative to other alternatives? Anyway, you do of course need to rebuild the docs each time you make a code change that is, a change to your C or whatever code as opposed to a change to the embedded doc.

You can set up your build process with a "distrib" or whatever target such that you build only when you are packaging the distribution version of your application, or only build when you want to test doc changes.

A build setup the rebuilds the doc every time a code change is made is not a good build setup -- regardless of the system you are using for building your docs. Which is not to say that good DocBook-to-man converters aren't doing a lot of stuff themselves.

I think I would personally say that any converter is doing quite a lot when it takes a large, complex DocBook document -- which is completely free from any presentational markup -- and transforms it into a rendering format be is XSL-FO, HTML, groff, or whatever that is primarily presentational. If that's your assumption about what a man page is, I think you might need to adjust your assumption. The ethereal-filter 4 man page, for example, is 4. If you consider that obscure, here a examples for some more widely used man pages: perlfunc man page: K gcc The size of the man file simply depends on what application you're documenting, and how extensively is it documented in source the man page is generated from.

How reasonable would it be to expect to be able to convert the source for the K perfunc man page on the fly, and get a near-instantaneous response when doing it? I'm not using xsl:key. I'm using what is basically an XSLT 2. I think I considered xsl:key but ended up not using because there was something that prevented it from being usable with the design. I don't remember now. You're instead comparing two completely different things. Some of them are fine alternatives, especially if you're willing to trade off flexibility and power for speed, and as long as you are willing to build your application in such as way that it requires end users to install additional dependencies other than just an XSLT engine in order to use it.

I personally think that there are many better uses to which you could put your energy and skills than in trying to creating the world's fastest DocBook-to-man or DocBook to HTML, or DocBook to FO transformation system. Even if you manage to achieve whatever performance goals you have in mind, the fact is that most users are simply not going to care, because most do not consider their current build times to be excessive.

I will download it and try it out soon. An important reason that I've still started that project was because I want ed an exercise in understanding and using FO before trying to tackle a real FO processor. Unfortunately, I've failed. It is frustrating to be constantly waiting for computers with 1. I would much prefer not to exacerbate the problem with my own software. If I fix a bug in docbook2X and re-run a regression test to check, I want to wait as short a time as possible for the results.

Also, there are situations where waiting is just not possible. Another kind of XML processing I do is literate programming, with edit-compile-test cycles. But the C compiler is typically loaded once for each file so the comparison isn't fair , and C compilers analyze the source heavily; they do a lot more than DocBook to man page converters. I mean, man pages are just 5K text files. Besides, I hear the tcc compiler alternative to gcc is very fast.

Well, utf8trans and iconv are blazingly fast. But even using just a subset, I've found through checking Btw, why is it necessary to use a small subset? If you've got xsl:key, the performance shouldn't depend on the size of the character map. Though I'm not in favor of this approach because it seems wasteful to load a 5MB XML document who knows how big it would expand to in memory just to process 10K chunks at a time.

Compare it just for kicks to, say, compiling and linking a C application that has as many lines of code as there are lines in the source for thos pages. I reckon it might take a lot longer than one minute to build that much C code. By "charset conversion" do you really mean charset conversion, or so you mean the Unicode-to-roff character translations that DocBook2X does? If you mean the Unicode-to-roff character translations, I would reckon that adding that will slow things down significantly.

Back in June of last year, inspired by the existing character- translatin support in DocBook2X, I added support in the DocBook project manpages stylesheet for user-configurable Unicode-to-roff character translations. It relies on use of a map file that is very much like the one you came up with for DocBook2X. By default, the manpages stylesheet only uses a subset of the full map.

But even using just a subset, I've found through checking with the --profile in xsltproc that total time for all calls to the XSLT template that performs the character translation far exceeds the total time needed for any other single template. Doing string substitutions in XSLT 1. Another optimization that makes a significant difference, at least in the case of processing with the DocBook project manpages stylesheet, is combining all the source files together into a single XML document prior to running the XSLT process on that source.

You could have DocBook2X do that quickly and efficiently using a simple shell script or of course using Perl. I would take pride in that figure if I were you. Again, for the sake of comparison, consider how long it might take to compile a C application or set of applications from 10, separate source files. I think it might take a lot longer than one hour.

It is probably significantly faster than what the DocBook project manpages stylesheet might be able to do with the same document collection. Perhaps as much as 10 times or more faster. But it is not really useful to consider performance of man-page conversion in isolation. I think if you also need to compare it to performance of other conversion for other output formats, primarily compare it to performance for HTML and FO transformation.

I have found that converting a source file to man output using the DocBook project manpages stylesheet requires roughly as much processing time as converting that same source to "chunked" HTML output using the chunk stylesheet in the DocBook XSL distro. So the manpages stylesheet, slow though it may be, really isn't very slow at all relative to processing for other output formats.

As far as other DocBook-to-man solutions, I think it might be unlikely that you will be able to achieve processing times as small as those of Fred Dalrymple's instant 1 -based docbook-to-man converter. But I personally wouldn't bother taking any time to compare anything to that. It's true that some people still use it, but output from it is just worthless unless you are willing put all kinds of workarounds in your source to deal with the many deficiencies that docbook-to-man has.

For one thing, it requires you to keep the source for all your refentry instances in separate files, because it's not capable of bursting or chunking out separate man pages from a source file that contains multiple refentry instances. Security Code: Your browser does not support JavaScript!

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